As I was driving to work last week, I heard DC-based matchmaker Paul Carrick Brunson, of One Degree From Me, being featured on the Tom Joyner Morning Show. I’ve followed him on Twitter for years and even heard him speak at an Urban League young professionals meeting on ‘Black Love’ last year.
Usually Paul’s advice is spot-on but the challenge he issued to women today, rubbed me the wrong way. Prior to issuing the challenge, he gave an interesting stat saying that “Women over the age of 25, typically go on 3-5 dates a year.” The whole time I was thinking that can’t possibly be right, but when I put it out to Twitter other black women said that was about right. Maybe I’m just an anomaly, because I’ve done quite a bit of dating over the last 3 years. Shoot, I was in a relationship for most of this year and I’ve been out with at least 5 guys and some of them multiple times in 2011 alone. But anyways back to the challenge…
Paul’s challenge to woman was to ask 10 men out by January 1, 2012. I take issue with this for a number of reasons. Mainly because I don’t believe in women asking men out. Call me old-fashion, but it’s the man’s role to ask a woman out, not the other way around. When women change-up the natural order of things, everything gets messed up. Our society already has enough issues when it comes to dating and relationships, why make matters worse by having a bunch of women going out asking men out?
I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with making eye contact, speaking first, or simply flirting, but once a woman crosses the boundary by asking a man for his number and asking him out that’s taking it too far.
Here’s where my issue lies. I want a man to be a man. Too many women are getting caught up in being so independent and saying things like “I don’t need a man” or “there are no good men out there.” While there’s nothing wrong with being an independent woman, I don’t believe women should take on characteristics of men, especially when it comes to dating. Once a woman asks a man out she sets the tone for how things will work from then on out. If she asks him out first, whether subconsciously or not, he will likely expect her to initiate things going forward.
Trust me I’ve seen it happen many times before. A while ago, I went out with one of my girlfriends to a local restaurant. She spotted a guy she thought was attractive and spent the evening pursuing him and flirting with him. They exchanged numbers, 6 months later she wondered why the guy would call her but never made any attempt to ask her out but he’d always “joke” when are you going to ask me out? Although she said he would say it in a joking manner, I’m sure in his mind he was thinking, hey she approached me the next move is up to her.
If you’re just looking to have a little fun and not a relationship, I say go for the dating challenge. Ask 10 men out, pay for the dates, and see how things progress from there. For women who are having problems finding dates, I guess there’s nothing to lose, let me know how things work out. As for me I’m good.
Thoughts? Opinions? Comments?
I totally agree, wholeheartedly! The very thought along is a turn off for me so I wouldn’t be able to do it. Most men like challenges and if a woman comes on to them she’s no longer a challenge. I’ve had friends tell me that this is the 20th century, women are now taking the initiative. Still even, I’m good. As you mentioned, you do have to let a man be a man!
I would agree that this isn’t something to do. But for a lot of women, if they aren’t getting asked out, they feel like they need to take matters into their own hands. Bully for them.
I know a lot of men will respond positively but they aren’t usually the types of men I mesh well with. I like men who do ‘caveman shyt’. This includes being the leader, choosing a mate, etc. the thing a lot of women miss is that a man often responds because he 1) has nothing else he’d rather do so why not go out with her–especially if she’ll ask, make arrangements, and pay 2) he knows she’s pressed and he’ll probably need to exert minor effort 3) he assumes she’ll be more likely to screw, offer girlfriend duties, THEN ask if this is going to be a committed relationship.
Ding, ding!
i get asked out on dates all the time. i usually decline because most times the type of women who ask me out aren’t the type of women i am interested in. i’m old fashioned myself but if the right woman asked me out i don’t think i would be opposed to that. lol
Thanks for your comment @madscientist7. “i get asked out on dates all the time. i usually decline because most times the type of women who ask me out aren’t the type of women i am interested in.” That is exactly why I’m not the kind of woman to ask men out. It definitely takes a certain kind, and I am not her.
yeah I don’t think I’m that kind either, but if I do, I still want him to pay. Especially if its the first date. is that wrong? Probably so, which is why I’m not doing it! LOL
I agree with all you’ve said.
And really? Black women only go on 3 to 5 dates per year? I go on three to five dates per month. C’mon ladies, get your butts out there and meet some people! LOL
Anyway, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a woman starting up a conversation or tastefully flirting with a guy, but asking a man out on a date feels a little desperate to me. And if a man knows you’re desperate, he’ll take advantage of that. He may agree to go out with you, but don’t be mad if he expects you to pay or if he never calls you or never behaves like a gentleman.
All of my guy friends say they like the chase. If a woman is soooo available that she’s asking a man out, I think men tend to lose interest in that woman.
Yeah it’s HARD finding a good guy, but ladies please don’t start acting all new school. You are ruining it for those of us women with higher expectations! LOL
-V
Love your comments Victoria especially, “Yeah it’s HARD finding a good guy, but ladies please don’t start acting all new school. You are ruining it for those of us women with higher expectations! LOL”
BTW, we are so overdue to meet in real life. Let’s make it happen soon!
Hey lady,
Yes we definitely to meet up soon! I don’t go out as much as you, but I’m surprised we haven’t run into each other by now. Soon though!
-V
Thanks for sharing.
I don’t know about Paul’s challenge to women to ask out 10 guys before 1/1/2012, and I am not sure that his challenge included paying for the dates. That does seem a bit extreme, as most women are not used asking guys out, paying for and planning dates, so 10 in a short period is probably over the top.
However, I do agree with the premise. I do believe that women should be more open to asking guys out and being more aggressive/assertive in “getting a guy’s attention”. That may mean bringing up a Groupon purchased, or asking about an event/activity one’s interested in. I believe that male/female roles are evolving. While I think every woman wants a leader and someone to at least share, if not wholly lead their household, I see as it’s not important how a man and woman meets, but what happens after they meet. If a woman asks a guy out, fine. If a guy asks a woman out, fine. Five years later, if they are married, it will be nothing but a funny story over dinner somewhere anyway.
Seems like more of the reason women do not like asking guys out is 1) fear of rejection – as most guys are conditioned to handling that rejection, most women are not, and 2) fear that if the woman asks the guy out, the guy will somehow become lazy, or never ask the woman out from that point on. Wanting a “guy to be a guy” will still be a concern whether or not the male or female initiates the first date. Just because a woman made the first move does not absolve the guy from making the woman feel courted. At the same time, a very attractive quality of women is the ability to adapt and be flexible in different situations. Asking a guy out / flirting / buying a guy a drink / initiating conversation / being creative in dating – are all simply “tools” that can be used in different situations.
One reason why I (and many of my friends) like the idea of a woman asking a guy out, is because it is so rare, and it usually comes from a very confident / sure of herself woman. Guys appreciate that stuff. We do. I can name you EVERY woman that has ever asked me out on a date, and even those who have bought be drinks / sent me drinks at a bar. Why? Because it does not happen that often. Not many women are willing to take the risk of what happens when they show some initiative.
Heck, want to try something *really* different? Try planning an evening for a guy. You don’t even have to be single or dating. You can be cuffed or even married. Often, guys think women don’t have a feel for the complexity it takes to plan dates and full evenings of activities (and the costs associated). Plan the entire thing – research some activities, plan the date, let him know ahead of time what’s planned, tell the guy what time to be ready, pick him up, etc. You know, all the stuff that you enjoy / expect from your guy. That’s the way, in my opinion, that you *truly* appreciate something, is when you treat someone the way you want to be treated.
The reality is that male/female roles have already changed somewhat. Look at casual sex. Look at dating in the workplace. Look at expectations of dates now. Look at who pays. Look at how women are portrayed in society. Not the same as 5, 10, 15 years ago. Certainly some of us are old-fashioned, and some are more open to the changes. There are people on both sides. But these same times that welcome women making more money, being more educated, being more traveled, cooking and cleaning less than their mates from times before, probably also are open to women initiating dates, events, mixers, meetups, tweetup, happy hours, night outs and night ins.
Remember, the important part is how you end up, not how you begin.
Huh… I do ask… and it backfires lol… men like a challenge, I mean when you have a really really shy guy you can take the lead, … a bit… take too much and they’re gonna run away… it sucks, but thats life!
LOL! I don’t see anything wrong with a woman asking a man out if she is comfortable with it. The statistics are SAD–Black women are NOT getting married and if that is what you desire why not go after what you want? I think the reason the guy you mentioned has not asked your girlfriend out is because he is playing GAMES and is either married, involved in a relationship or just not interested.IIf he was actually interested in your girl he would have made an attempt to see her.
Also women have to be HONEST about what they really want..why after 6 months is your girlfriend still entertaining this guy?? He is playing games with her because she is allowing it! I behaved like this back in my day. Guys would come and go and I allowed this. It wasn’t until I decided to NOT give men like this a chance and go after what I really wanted( a real relationship) not bull…did I meet my husband. Sorry but no REAL man is going to sit back and let a woman initiate every detail of their relationship just because she made the first move.
As a relationship coach, I support my fellow colleagues in their opinions because we are discussing the driving force for a prosperous society: better relationships. I haven’t follow Paul’s work but see this as a generational issue. It baffles me regarding this concept because in many cases it goes against natural energies.
I have a stat for you to consider: All of the women who I’ve coached or researched who have asked men out and they married also had an extremely high divorce rate. No one ever discuss this stat. For example, I’ve heard this statement before from younger dating expert but have follow women who take that advice. And within a few years they are divorced.
Here is my perspective, express interest to secure his mind that he would not be rejected but let him do the hunting. Men simply value a woman more when they take the initial action than when it just falls in their lap. One size does not fit all but in the majority cases the nature of a man is to hunt and going against this starts the relationship against it normal state. This is mainly why energies clash and why divorce rates are high.
I’m a guy, 34 years old. I particularly like women who can ask me out and take the initiative half the number of times. I believe in equality, and I mean true equality, not just when it benefits you.
Unfortunately, most women my age are too old-fashioned and expect me to do everything. That’s too much belief in entitlement simply because they are women. That sets the tone for my slavery for the rest of my life. Not happening!
Most women who asked me out were in their early 20s. I was in a relationship with one, from the time I was 22 until I was 30. We went to grad school together. And she took the initiative most of the time for the first 4 dates. Then I asked her out and we had a fantastic relationship based on equality between us. We both played an equal part in our relationship and we communicated openly about everything … no mind games, no hidden meanings, no traditional gender role expectations, … just unconditional love for each other.
We were engaged for two years. However, she belonged to another culture and her family was strongly against us being together. Then she lost her visa when she lost her job at the start of the recession, and she had to return to her country 4 years ago. Her family forced her into getting married to someone from her culture. In other words, we did not split because she asked me out. We split due to other reasons. Our relationship lasted longer than most marriages last these years.
I’m still looking for that confident woman, not the insecure one. Unfortunately, most of them are in their mid-20s now and I feel too old when they’ve asked me out. I wish some women in their early 30s were confident and secure enough to take the initiative. I’m looking for someone close to my age.
Another thing I want to say about women asking men out …
Some men may not like that. However, you have to question how secure the man is if he does not like a woman taking initiative.
A man who is truly secure and confident within himself is going to appreciate a secure and confident woman. So if you are a secure and confident woman who is able to ask a man out and if the man has negative feelings as a result, he’s probably not the right one for you.
So ladies, be exactly who you are without following those outdated traditional gender roles and you will find the right man for you. If you are meek, you might find a dominant partner. If you have a balanced perspective, you’ll find a balanced partner. Just because society expects you to, don’t try to be meek if you are naturally seeking a balanced life, because you will end up with the wrong person.
Oh, one more thing …
If you, as a woman, never take initiative, how are you going to get what you want?
The handsome career guy you saw sitting in front of his laptop at the coffee shop might have been engrossed in some news article he was reading online. If you had asked him out, you could have had a lifelong relationship with him. Instead, you were passive. You did not ask him out.
However, there was a horny prick who noticed you, came over to you and asked you out. Three years later, you got married and you had kids together. He wasn’t the man you wanted, but you were the adventure he wanted. Now that your attention is divided among your kids, he’s off to his next adventure. You figure out he’s cheating on you, and you are stuck with raising your kids as a single mother.
If only you had asked the guy you wanted out on a date.
I wrote the above story because my sister’s college roommate told me exactly this story. If only … but it was too late for her.
So once again, just be who you are. If you are assertive, be assertive. If you are meek, be meek. Don’t change yourself just because society expects you to, because you will only repent later.
Good luck!
I follow Paul Carrick Brunson on twitter. Many wise words. I agree with you. x